Courage in the Journey with Owen Burton

elcome back to The Muddy Cross — a faith-based podcast where real stories meet real grace.

In this powerful episode, I sit down with Owen as he opens up about his journey before coming to God. From experimenting with drugs to growing up with an alcoholic father, Owen shares the realities he faced and how those experiences shaped his life.

We dive into the turning point that led him to faith, his baptism, and the transformation that followed. This is an honest, raw, and hope-filled conversation about redemption, healing, and the power of God to change any life.

If you’ve ever wondered whether your past can be redeemed or how God meets us in our lowest moments, this episode is for you.

🎧 Listen now and be encouraged.

Don’t forget to like, comment, and subscribe to stay updated with future episodes of The Muddy Cross.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hi, and welcome back to the Muddy Cross Podcast. Thanks so much for joining us again. In this episode, we're joined with Owen. I'm really excited to hear his story, share his story with you guys as well. So, Owen, thank you so much for joining us on the show. I really, really appreciate it. Um, I guess the best place to start is right at the beginning. So, if we give like a brief introduction to who Owen is, who you are, and I've got a lot of questions that I'll I'll I want to make sure that we we chat about. But if you give us a brief introduction to who you are, I'd be all right.

SPEAKER_00 0:27

So, I'm a father of three children, I have a beautiful wife, um, I'm a family man, you know, I do gardening, um, love, love nature, love outdoors, love anything, anything outdoors, and I'm very curious about about the world. Um, this did lead me into some troubles, which we'll talk about later on. Um, and I'm very new to to the faith, I'm very new to the idea of God and Christianity, and recently was baptized.

SPEAKER_02 0:55

Yeah. And I was at your baptism at baptism as well. It was great, and and it's really refreshing, encouraging um to have your whole family as part of the church as well, and such a lovely family as well. Do you mind me asking on you obviously you just said that you're you're new to faith. What was your life like before you had faith?

SPEAKER_00 1:16

Um, so my childhood was quite chaotic. Um, my father was a was an alcoholic, he still is, and that that really did it bled through my entire childhood into adulthood, into teenagers and everything. There was this disconnection, right? Um, and it not nothing ever felt right. I always felt like I was the black sheep, um, you know, just in the world. I didn't feel had any place in the world, and um, you know, having my curiosity and this feeling of being a black sheep and not fitting in eventually led myself down into some dark pathways where drugs got involved and um yeah, things got chaotic. Right, okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:59

That that does sound a bit uh bit of turmoil. So you mentioned obviously with drugs. I mean, was that um was that a struggle for you? And you know, how did how did that start? Was that just through curiosities or was that through curious things?

SPEAKER_00 2:12

It was through curiosity. Yeah, I mean, it was it was during lockdown, and you know the whole situation during lockdown was quite stressful for everyone. Yeah, and um I just you know I I managed to acquire some some LSD. That led me on a a very j uh a very big journey which I enjoyed at the time until I didn't. Um and it went very dark, very bad, very quickly. Um, and then I started experimenting with everything, everything else, uh, and then it just it just went. Right.

SPEAKER_02 2:48

And I mean, like what did what did daily life look like in terms of using?

SPEAKER_00 2:52

Was it like an everyday occurrence for you?

SPEAKER_02 2:53

Was it just the weekends?

SPEAKER_00 2:55

So it started out as a you know, a hobby, I would say. Started out Saturday night, eventually it became you know every night. Right. And then and then when I was at my worst, it became during work, on my way to work, on my way home from work, at home, just ev everywhere. Um there was there was time where I would be even um doing it off the steering wheel on my way to work, you know, like I was that gone. I was I was so lost.

SPEAKER_02 3:24

Um that must have been um well you already said it must have been quite a dark, a dark time, and I would imagine you felt well if I put words in your mouth, probably stuck. Yeah, I was I was stuck in the hole. And and you know, what obviously something changed because you're not that you you you you don't use anymore. No, um what what was it then, what was the catalyst that changed?

SPEAKER_00 3:51

So I think I I whilst I don't use, I still have addictive tendencies, but I'm able to put these to one side now because of a I would say an intervention from God, um, which I didn't know was going on at the time. Um, but I had I kept having this these feelings and these coincidences that would happen. Right. And I couldn't, you know, eventually I couldn't attribute anything other than there being a god. And you know, I was never Christian, I was never I was open, I was open to ideas, always have been, but I was um I had no choice. I I was like, you know, this has to mean something, this has to be something bigger than than me. And um, you know, as soon as I opened the doorway to that being a possibility, yeah, you know, just everything came flooding in and um yeah, it just uh do you recall that moment when you thought this is God or you I I you know you can tell me maybe you acquired a Bible, opened a Bible.

SPEAKER_02 4:54

What was that one moment where you thought that sort of almost that ha ha moment this this is it?

SPEAKER_00 4:59

This this is the there was a couple, right? I'll tell you, I'll tell you two of them. One time I was I was doing a lot of drugs, I was still I was still at work in an office at the time, and I was doing you know, I do it throughout the day. So um at this point I I was still thinking that it was the drugs making this this effect happen. Uh but this particular day, and then it kind of turned into a week where I believed I was Jesus, right? Um, and I I had no interest in Jesus at this point, um, no belief in Jesus, no interest in Jesus at this stage. And I went out on my lunch break and I bought this homeless lady like £25 worth of fruit. Um, and you know, I gave her a hug. I I gave her a big hug and and um I said I said God bless and I didn't know why I said it, you know, I wouldn't use that language ever. I said God bless, I walked away, and I just felt this like this feeling um of the Holy Spirit, which I now know, but I didn't then um just cut that it just it filled me with this this um this feeling that I had and I and I took that for like a week and I was on my work computer and I was just reading the Bible on the computer when I was supposed to be doing work and things like that. Wow prior to no interest and then suddenly just obsessed with it. Yeah um then the other the other major sort of f uh time where I where I was like this is God uh was was was kind of like when River was born. Um I've already got I already had two children, we didn't want another one, well I didn't want another one. I was I was speaking to Kira, my partner, and um she wanted another one, but I just said no, like I don't I don't I don't want another one, two's enough, you know, I'm done there. And um all of this was going on, it was towards the end of that week where I thought I was Jesus and all of this stuff that was happening. I was I was all over the place and I said Kira, I want another one. Um and she she didn't know what to do because she didn't trust that I was you know sane. She she thought, you know, he's he's not he's gonna turn around in a week's time and say that he didn't mean that, you know. Um but fast forward to now I've got I've got three children and River is a very beautiful little boy, yeah, yeah. Um but I believe that that was an act of faith, and that was you know, God God speaking to me and delivering River into the world. Yeah, that is my main thing that I attribute to um God waking me up from my slumber, if you will.

SPEAKER_02 7:32

Yeah, that's that's that's that's quite incredible. Do you remember me you mentioned about Kira there? Um, obviously, this has happened in your life, and what you know, did Kira have faith? Did she not have faith when you kind of spoke to her about faith? What were her thoughts in amongst this?

SPEAKER_00 7:51

Um, well, she didn't at the beginning she she supported me for how I used drugs. I was using them sensibly at the time. She was supporting me and she would listen to my ideas. She's always listened to my ideas. I've I've always been quite uh like a conspiracy theorist about things. I would always we'd always have these conversations, and she uh she actually said last night how she finds me really interesting, yeah. Um, which is nice. Yeah, um so she's always been open to hearing what I have to say, yeah. And uh she comes from a a non-religious background as well. I think her parents were pagans, um, but they were against, you know, not against, but not really any Christian background or anything like that. Um but so she doesn't have any, you know, she doesn't have any religious background, and so me coming at her of this was was strange for her to hear. Um so she didn't know how to take it. So you know, she didn't know how to take it, and she I guess she just had to have faith. You know, she had to have as much faith as well as I did.

SPEAKER_02 8:52

It's great though to think that you both run this voyage of discovery together as well. I mean, that must obviously um strengthen your your relationship with each other, oh yeah, um, and and as well as your relationship with God too. Um, so I I think that's just fantastic. So, so Owen, you know, we said or you said already that you're you're new to faith, you really embrace God because you've also been baptized as well. Um, do you want to speak into that a little bit? I mean, I know that you sp we spoke before about this and sort of afterwards, what came afterwards as well, which I find quite interesting. Do you want to speak into your baptism a bit as well?

SPEAKER_00 9:31

So, yeah, after my baptism, um, and this was this was a thing that initially began uh quite a long time ago when I was using drugs. I had um sleep paralysis and and it came and it went, you know, it came and it went. Um and then I was baptized and it came again. Um and then and it came and it didn't go for a while, and and it was and it was quite you know, it was quite dark the things that would happen. Um I would be asleep and I would be unable to wake up, I would be locked, you know, I'd be laying there, my eyes would be shut, but I'd know I was awake, um, and I'd have this, and then I'd have voices and things saying that what they were gonna do, and and you know, Kira with sharp teeth uh saying that she's she was gonna eat eat the baby, and like that's crazy, yeah. Um crazy stuff like that. And but this but this didn't deter me, this pushed me further because I was like, I I know what's going on, like I can see what's happening. I believed in demons from all my drug experiences. I had some I would say run-ins with demons um in other ways that made me believe. So that is another driver of my faith is you know, sometimes the negative thing like de demons and sleep paralysis and nightmares and all the bad things can actually can actually push you closer in your belief. Because you're like, hang on, this this is trying to attack me, why would it be trying to attack me? And um, and it led me to you know get closer to God, not further away. So done the opposite of what it wanted.

SPEAKER_02 11:16

Yeah, and and that's really interesting. Point, you know, anyone that's listening to this episode is that you know, quite often we we question, oh, why would God let this happen? And and you know, it's not God letting it happen. It's if when we move closer to God, you know, the enemy doesn't like that, you know. The enemy wants to to take people away and and therefore tends to push harder. Yeah. So I think perhaps the fact that you know you came to faith and then you took another step forward to publicly uh be baptized and and the devil's thinking, I'm losing him. Yeah, you know, and then and you know these these attacks might happen. So I think it's encouraging for people to hear that because if they're going through challenges like this, um, as you say, not to deter you in your faith, but actually realize what I'm doing is right and I should keep pushing forward and I should keep um you know learning more. Yeah. Um and and hopefully the then these attacks will will dissipate or you know he'll lose flavor. Uh so no, I think that's really um a really good thing. I've got a I've got a few um a few more questions. I want to make sure I've got I've got we've we've covered quite a few already. Um just touching on the drug element again. Do you feel having gone through that? I'm sure the answer will be yes, but I'm interested to know how and why. Um do you feel that your experience having gone through that has put you in a particular position, and obviously having to come come to faith as well, has put you in a position to reach people in a different way, or perhaps reach people that others couldn't get?

SPEAKER_00 12:58

I think that you know, my like I said, my childhood was you know kind of I've always had addic addiction's always been there in some way or another. So, you know, the fact that I went through it and my dad and and a lot of my friends, you know, I it's very rampant in society. Everyone suffers, and I think um some suffer, you know, worse than others and with different things, and I think that I'm definitely in a position where I want to talk about it because you know I've had addiction, but I've had a lot of things, you know, a lot of a lot of things happen within that addiction that you know other people may not have experienced that I could share and help help others and um you know people people new to faith, you know, they might not understand what's going on. And um, you know, I'll give my best explanation. Yeah, I'm not an expert, but you know, that's that's what you can do, is give your story and hope that it can help an element of somebody else's life and their journey with God.

SPEAKER_02 14:02

No, I I absolutely, you know, we all we all have a story, and I think you know it's important to share those because it that gives encouragement to other people as well, doesn't it? And um, you know, probably not as a good point to mention that you are already starting to share your story online, which is really, really great. We'll put some links um in the description as well of this podcast, so that if you want to check out more of Oren's story more in depth, probably because some of the you talk a little bit deeper in those, you do check out um his videos. I have no doubt, Owen, there's probably going to be more. Um not pushing you, but I have no doubt there's gonna be more. So, Owen, we've looked now then at the drugs and how they impacted your daily life. Yeah. High night, we replace the the drugs with faith. High night is faith workout in your daily life. What what is your daily life, your daily work in faith?

SPEAKER_00 14:55

So, to be honest, you know, I'm quite busy, I don't always have the time. I try my best. Um, I try my best with with praying every night with Kira. And uh we do say grace at the table before dinner. Um, I read the Bible most of the time I listen to the Bible because it's easier when when you're mowing the grass, it's quite hard to read the Bible. Yeah, so you know, I listen to bits of the Bible, but I I don't particularly listen to it in any order, just just I just I just whack on just a random um passage, or I just if something's happened that makes me think of this one, I'll listen to that. I'm a bit um chaotic in that. I just listen to whatever I feel at the time. So I've read you know some of it, I haven't finished all of it. Yeah, you know, it's just a bit yeah separated, but I don't think it matters, you know. I'm still immersing myself in it. Yeah, um, I could perhaps do more than I am, yeah. Um but you know, with work and things like that, I'm always you know, always tired, always looking after the kids. Yeah, so but I would say I try my best.

SPEAKER_02 16:00

Yeah, I think you know, I think that that's you know, all we can do. Life is very Calic, life is very busy, it just seems to be getting busier and busier, yeah, particularly when you're a parent and you're running around doing all these things. And I I think the you know the point is just to be aware, to, as you say, not fit it in, but include it into your life. Yeah, um, and there'll be more, there'll be times it will read more the Bible than than other days, or that we'll pray heavier. Um, and uh I think that it's uh it's it's important for us to even share those those walks with each other as well, because I think that a lot of people have this um picture perfect step of a Christian where they wake up in the morning and they read X amount of the Bible and they sing and they pray, and then lunchtime it happens, and and life's practically not like that, is it? No, it's not. Um, and I think that we need to be very realistic.

SPEAKER_00 16:49

Um, there's there's there's many times where I go I can go, I've I've gone a couple of days and I've not done anything. And I'm like, oh like I need to do something, I I need to get back. Because once you I've found in my experience anyway, once you do slip, you know, two days past three days, and it's not because I don't want to, it's just because I've been mowing lawns for like 13-14 hours. I want I got home doing the cleaning and having dinner and gone to bed. You know, I've just not yeah, I haven't fit it in. But when that starts happening, then you know you your emotions change, things change, get more stressed, um, and it does have an effect, even if you know it doesn't feel like it straight away. Once you once that starts, it starts happening, it starts snowballing.

SPEAKER_02 17:34

Yeah, I I mean I find it like you say, you just start to notice yourself getting a little touchy or or whatever the case may be, and it's the that self-recognition of I I actually need it and I need God in my life, I need God's word in my life, I need to talk to God because I can just feel life almost taking over when we die, you know, and um yeah, absolutely. Um, so how do you leading on from that and and still talking into that, how do you get yourself regrounded? Do you then, if you've gone a few days of like, you know, reading the Bible or praying or talking to God, whatever, how how do you then get back into it? Is it a case of no care? I need I just need 10 minutes here. I just need to regroup, connect with God. Or what does that look like?

SPEAKER_00 18:20

Yeah, I often I I do like to talk to God in private, just on my own. I do like, you know, I I we do pray together, but I like my private private space with God, especially if it's like I haven't been there for a few days and I feel bad about something, you know. I wanna I want to set up the conversation with an apology first, and you know, and and normally explain why. Like I've just been doing all this stuff and I'm sorry, I didn't have time. Um and I'll try harder, you know, that and then you have to actually do try harder. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So but you know, I'll be the first to admit that it's happened many times and it will happen again. Yeah, of course it will. But you know, you just have to get back up and try again, yeah, and that's that's all you can do.

SPEAKER_02 19:06

Yeah, no, I I I I I totally agree. Um, so I I'd like you to, if you if you wouldn't mind, share some encouragement for somebody that is maybe feeling stuck right now. Now, it could be that they're stuck in a situation similar to you where they were um there's an addiction addiction was involved. It could be that they're just stuck in a relationship issue, it could be stuck, they could be stuck in anything. What what advice do you think you could give to somebody that's just feeling stuck and trapped in life right now?

SPEAKER_00 19:37

I would say, um, I don't want to quote the Bible, but I will say do not fear. I will say do not fear because the world can get very overwhelming, like in whatever you know, relationship, addiction, job, like whatever it is. Um, but what I've come to realize is no matter what happens, no matter what is happening, it you know, once you have God to lean on, you have something that you you know you never had before. You have you have like something that that tells you this is gonna be okay, this is gonna this is gonna work out. And and before I had God, I didn't well before I knew I had God, I didn't have that thing that I could lean on, I could that would say this is all gonna work out, just trust me, just wait. Yeah, um, so do not fear and patience as well, because um things also they don't last, you know, just like the seasons, they don't last, um, they do pass, and sometimes it could be messy, sometimes it could be you know a bit neater, but um do not fear and patience, I would say. Yeah, um, but in terms of anyone's anyone looking to like start their journey, I would just suggest just opening a Bible and just um even if it's at random, sometimes I've had it where I've opened the Bible at random, it's just spoken to me straight away. Yeah, um, or even you know, I would also suggest, I have suggested to a few of my friends who who are addicts at the moment, who are in active addiction at the moment, I have suggested that they just pray, but yeah, a lot of the time they won't. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:23

Yeah, it's it's you know, it's it's a it's a tricky situation because I think um so I used to be in in the fitness industry, and a lot of people will often say to me, Oh, I need to get myself, you know, fit before I can come and see you. Yes. And as I used to say, Well, no, the point is that you come to me so I help you on your journey to becoming fit. And I think that uh, you know, it's quite similar in some respects with faith is that you can just come along to a Bible study, or come along and see a friend, or come along to a service, and you may not understand, you may not fully agree with it, but. But just being there and being in the presence, yeah, it can really speak, it can really change you, and it and that's can that simple action can just start you on your faith, can't it?

SPEAKER_00 22:09

Well it it kind of like triggers your curiosity and you know, oh they said something that really resonated there, yeah. And then you know, maybe you don't think about it and then go again and it and they say it again and again. Yeah, and then the certain quotes that you remember and yeah uh just things like that, really, isn't it? It's uh it builds up, it stacks over time. Yeah, it does.

SPEAKER_02 22:30

I think it helps those people if you you know if you are feeling lost, that curiosity can feel quite welcoming, actually, and and and lift you out of that lost feeling. It may not answer your questions or solve your problems immediately, but I think a sense of belonging is a great oh, yeah, is a great start, isn't it? It's um absolutely so I've got just a few more just before we end. Um if you could go back to your younger self, would you change anything? What would you say to yourself? What advice would you give yourself? Um quite similar to the last one, but obviously more specific to you.

SPEAKER_00 23:11

I would probably give the same answer though. I would I would um I don't think I would suggest to get into God at that time because I don't think I would listen. Yeah, right, okay. If you know what I mean. Yeah, yeah. But I would still say do not fear. Um you know, and just just to just to reiterate that things do work out, um I would try to suggest God without saying it, because I know that I wouldn't have listened at that time. Yeah. I was a big atheist back in the day, so yeah, um, but if I had had God, I think things would have gone a lot smoother, and I wouldn't have necessarily gone down all these uh you know dark, windy roads that I did. Um but at the end of the day, they led me here anyway.

SPEAKER_02 24:00

Well, this this is quite often it's an on for a question in some respects because um, you know, yes, our our roads have led us to where we are now. Um, but the experiences that we've had, I do believe allows us to reach people that other people may not be able to reach. So the fact that you're talking about your addiction with drugs, you know, somebody else who's not had that experience might find it a little bit more challenging to help and guide somebody through who's having that experience. So um I I think that um God knows all, God knows us on our journey is still our choice to follow them or not. Um, but there's these are all lessons along the way. I mean, we've spoken uh about our own Judy and I through the Grace and the Great um uh series that although we weren't walking with God, there was a lot of refining in the process. Yeah. That in hindsight we can look back and think, you know, I actually learned a lot about myself and I've and I have changed a lot about myself for the better. Um so yeah, it's a slightly on for a question, but uh worth asked nonetheless. Um what you can give more than one if you wish, but what misunderstanding do you feel that people have about faith? Because I think there's a lot people nowadays, I think there's a lot more openness, um, a willingness um to hear God's word and and and um and understand it more. But for those that are there's still a lot of misunderstanding, I think. What what one or two things do you think would it people misunderstand?

SPEAKER_00 25:38

I think the main ones probably that you don't have to be perfect. It's not like this it's not like this perfection cult thing. Yeah, um I agree. You don't have to know anything, you know, you don't have to I I still haven't read the Bible, you know, all of it. I you know I'd not ashamed to say that. Um you you don't need to know all all of it, you don't need to know everything, you don't need to know anything, you just need to show up and have an openness to to receive, you know, what's there, what what God has given, what God has given us. Um you know, you don't you don't need to bring anything with you other than yourself. And I think a lot of people just think uh I don't know enough about this, I don't you know, I'm not like that, I don't have the time and all this stuff. But if you just all you have to do is just just pray and just or just go to a church, just open a Bible. It's a simple action, isn't it? But um oftentimes people overthink it, I think.

SPEAKER_02 26:37

Yeah, yeah. I I I agree. I think that we we judge ourselves off other people's standards, don't we? So therefore we think if people are going to church, well then they must be like this, and and whatever this is that that that's what they have in their mind, and I did that. And therefore, I don't measure up to this, therefore Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:55

I I did that as well. You know, at the beginning I I did, and you know, I I went to church and everyone seemed really friendly and that. And I was like, I'm not, I'm not like I don't know enough, I don't I'm not like these people, you know.

SPEAKER_02 27:07

I don't but but you know it it's good because but actually in church you realise that everybody's different anyway. Everyone's a sort of a normal person, but but God mess that way, God met us to be individuals, to be different. Um, and uh yeah, I think that uh there is a well, there's a lot of misunderstanding in that regard, and this is why part of the reason why we do this podcast as well, and particularly the interviews, is to realize for people watching that we're all just ordinary people, we're all just ordinary people looking to find our place in the world, looking to find our place in God's kingdom. Um and uh I I think it's a lot more um purposeful when you let God in. Yeah, I think it's very hard. I think I and I know I did wonder for many years thinking, what is my purpose? What am I meant to do in life? And that's quite a heavy uh bag to carry. But when we when I came to faith, I realized that take a lot of that stress away from yourself, uh, and it's just building that relationship with God and and spreading his word, and and along the journey, whatever the journey is gonna be, God will keep interjecting, keep sort of me in whatever way I've got to go. Um, so there's a lot of pressure I feel is taken off me. Um once I realize that. Um, I'm gonna end with I'm gonna end with this question. Would you mind sharing with us one moment where you've really felt that God was with you and you just felt, do you know what? This is this is okay.

SPEAKER_00 28:35

Yeah. Yeah, so I had um I've had I've had many moments, um, but you're saying just one. Sure with it, just pick one. I know it's hard, it's hard. On for again, but share share a real memorable one. Uh most recently, I went to Steve Liberty's prophetic word um workshop where he was asking us to speak in tongues, and uh, you know, I didn't I was I've never done that before, I never I never I didn't even really, you know, I wasn't sure about it. I didn't know I've ever believed it or not. And so everyone started speaking in tongues. Um and as as it was going on, I did feel like really hot, like just boiling hot, just my head, just my head, not anywhere else. Um and then some a few people prayed that I would speak in tongues uh to that night or the next day. I did try, but it just sounded like you know nothing. So I just thought, oh, this is silly. The next day, um I tried again when I was pushing a law mower, and um I kept repeating the same word over and over again, and um it was is dannek and it meant to God when I translated it in Google Translate. Right. And when I did hear that, well you know, when I read that on on my phone, I I sat in a van and I was with with someone who's not who's very much against religion, all right. And I was just trying not to like smile, yeah. I was I was just like just trying to cover my face because I was I was ecstatic. Yeah, yeah. Um because you know, something like that is like how how I wouldn't it was Hungarian. I don't you know I don't I don't even know French, you know, I don't know. Um but yeah that there's been that's incredible. I mean that's that's one of the more I would say direct like it's literally two god slash four god is the meaning. Um but I've had you know other things symbolic such as the rainbows and various things that throughout my throughout a short period, yeah, really. Um but it's just so many things happen, you're like it's undeniable. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um and encouraging uh in your faith as well. Every time, yeah, every time if there's doubt, there's there's always doubt, isn't there? There's always a bit of doubt. I mean I don't know about you, but for me there is, there's always there's always doubt, and then sometimes then these things happen and the doubt gets taken away and then it comes again and it just keeps but then you know God will go like I'm still you know I'm still here.

SPEAKER_02 31:08

I think I think it's human nature. I mean, yeah, I have had doubts. I remember something we shared before in this uh um podcast, was literally about the podcast, and somebody prophetically came in and saying uh that I didn't know him at all. Uh never met him before in my life, and he said, God said that he wants you to share your voice, not use your voice nationally and internationally. And that was after a week's prayer, Lord, should we do this podcast? Should we do this podcast? And and that was a direct answer. And I left and Judy said, Well, there you go. And I said, Yeah, but I'm not quite sure. You know, that doubt, as you said, uh, and then we give me another sign. Then we went on to church uh to meet with our church, and somebody else came up and then shared something with me, which was kind of again sort of said, You want you want more proof? Here you go. And it does make me smile, and it massively encourages me, but I think there's something within we humans that that there is that doubt all the time, uh big or small, sometimes it goes away. Um, but I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing because as long as we use it to push further in to God. God, I know you said this, but can I just check? Can I just ask? Let me read more in scripture, let me pray more in this. Let me double triple check. So so even though we may have these doubts, if we're constantly pushing further into God to seek more clarification, that can't be a bad thing, can it? I hope, I hope not. Oh I agree. Um, so but listen, Owen, thank you so much for joining us in the episode and sharing what you've shared. Really, really appreciate it. And again, we'll put the link into um yeah, your channel where people can come and find out more about you. And we look forward to hearing more uh more from you as well in the future. Not putting any pressure on you, uh, but it's been an absolute delight having you on. Thank you so much. Thank you. Brilliant, guys. Thanks again for joining us in this episode. It really means a lot to us. We hope this fire this has found you uh uh in an encouraging way. And remember, if you want to uh find out more, subscribe and share this podcast with as many people as you can. Thank you so much for joining us, guys. Stay rid in Christ, stay strong, and we'll see you on the next one. Bye.